Is it out of scope of the BRA

[HaggLE]

Have been thinking (yes it hurt) about the class that is to replace the 125's in the motogp series, its rumoured to be a single cylinder 250-300cc four stroke engined bike.

Wouldnt it be a great class to get up and running now. RS125's or TZ125's with 250 MX engines. You have the four big jap brands all making these engines in current production. You could even convert the mx chassis for road racing without too much trouble.
Moriwaki have already built a bike that is exactly this spec:
http://www.moriwaki.co.jp/global/product/ccr_md250.php

To build one wouldnt cost any more than a crf150r in an rs125, loads of aftermarket parts too.

I think that this type of class could attract those with a bit of cash that want to start racing and dont mind a bit of tinkering and like the idea they are going to be racing the up coming moto3 bike!

[Snake]

To build one wouldnt cost any more than a crf150r in an rs125, loads of aftermarket parts too.

To maintain one...

[honda76]

may aswell race mod bikes in this club now the way its going .have to start a new classic club

[Paul 93]

Dose the club have to be all about historic bikes only? It's blatantly obvious that there are far more people wanting to race newer bikes than older. Im not suggesting we ditch the older bikes, but if we as a club want to move with the times we need to consider what the majority want.

[Martin]

I'll just go and get the popcorn, be right back.

[HaggLE]

may aswell race mod bikes in this club now the way its going .have to start a new classic club

If you want to be all historic, you and your makes could all go and get CBX250's and race against each other in that class, and cross enter into period 6.
You could also put said motor into whatever frame you choose, RD250 if you like old stuff, RG250 for something a bit newer or an RS125 if you want the more modern setup.

So you are concerned about maintaining a late model 250 engine, piston kit for a CRF250R is approx $100, valves are under $60 each, Con rod is $140, new cylinder $250.
This all seems reasonable to me, you'd pay this (or more) for maintaining a cb125.

[Flapper]

I can't follow the argument here, lost as to what and why but here's a few thourghts I had a while ago when the 125 gp's where given their use by date, and the moto2 concept had every one using a motor of choice, not a NASCAR do.

Yeah the most likely class would be a 250 mono class, CRF, YZf, KLX etc etc. then at the motoGP support paddock someone turned up with the Mori 250, MD250 ane the next thing you know they are running alongside our ASBK, 125's, so I think it's been done.

In the other world you'd think that their was a chance for independant builders to get into GP racing cheaply, anyone could build a decent race bike out of the left overs from the last ten years of RS and TZ'seven NSR's. A stonkingly overworked CRF 250 in a RS 250 or mad 125 chassis would be very nice. In motoGP and the normal bike racing environment , the little bloke never gets a go because some dill always come up with a method to complicate it and make it an elite class for money spenders, usally the most money wins, the odds are stacked for those with lots of money, how much to lease a CBR 600 motor to race moto2, like it cost a zillion to just get to the grid, but a CBR 600 motor thats ment to be midly tweeked, you can get a new CBR600 bike for how much

[acotrel]

NOW you're starting to get sensible! A series for bikes with aircooled single and twin cyllinder four stroke motors would cater for a lot of historic bikes that are now outclassed by two strokes. It would also cater for more modern bikes as well on an equal footing. It would allow the use of Chinese motors for which there are often loads of performance parts. And, who knows, we might even end up with a viable industry involving Australian manufacture of racing machines. Bring back capacity classes, forget about 'periods', they never meant anything anyway!

[acotrel]

Who's got an Aermacchi 250 for sale?

[Jason]

Aircooled? What? All the singles mentioned are modern, water-cooled - they would have as big an advantage over an old air-cooled equivalent as the stwo-strokes do over them.

[sunny jim]

So you are concerned about maintaining a late model 250 engine, piston kit for a CRF250R is approx $100, valves are under $60 each, Con rod is $140, new cylinder $250.
This all seems reasonable to me, you'd pay this (or more) for maintaining a cb125.

Own a late model dirt bike do you? Weekend trail bike riders can barely afford the $3500 rebuilds on these let alone anyone who hots one of these $hitboxes up. The MDH250 sorry make that 300 was a complete dog and never even went close to beating mild tune RS125's.

[Snake]

...let alone anyone who hots one of these $hitboxes up...

Maybe I'm just sentimental 'bout two strokes BUT I couldn't agree more

[acotrel]

It doesn't take much skill to get a twostroke going quickly. The only thing that will beat an RS125, is another RS125! But a fourstroke 250 class might just sort some of you out, particularly in the corners.

[Pretendo Rossi]

hmmm... i smell a "Bucket Plus" thread coming up.

the things you guys are talking about are covered in a set of rules i imagineered a couple of years back, quick-stix gadgets that are affordable and plenty of parts laying around.

i saw the parts-pool drying up for the original Buckets many years ago, so i thought about what was available and cheap.

not wanting to complicate things, so i will only start a new thread if there is a response.

[Deanoseadog]

Deja Vu?

[frogger_nude]

99999999 four strokes. 'nuff said.

Built one for this class yet Garry?

[HaggLE]

the crf250r makes 34hp.
RS125 makes 38hp??
Factor in the 4 stroke torque curve and I reckon you have a similar lap time.

SJ, I do not and never have owned a CRF or even a dirt bike... tho I used to have a PW80, does that count?

im not sure why you all think this is a bad idea, these engines are plentiful and cheap to repair, just because the lubrication is in the sump it shouldnt sway you away.

[acotrel]

When are we going to have a class for which we can buy new motors cheaply off-the-shelf. Will road racers always rely on cannibalising old MX machines for motors, and old road race machines for frames? It seems impossible to buy decent brand new two stroke motors, even direct from the Chinese or Japanese? So how can we ever support a twostroke class without buying an RS125? I'd like to see someone beat an RS125 with a fourstroke 250 - that'll be the day! I've seen RS125s blow off the 600s around Winton!

[Gosling1]

....When are we going to have a class for which we can buy new motors cheaply off-the-shelf.....

when hell freezes over.

There is nothing *cheap* any more mate, there is nothing *simple* - all that sh1t finished in the 50's.

You don't like RS125's much eh ?

[acotrel]

On the contrary, I DO like RS125s. I just don't believe in racing two strokes against fourstrokes unless there's a dramatic capacity advantage given to the fourstrokes. I believe in motoGP 500cc two strokes race against 900cc fourstrokes. If you translate that to a 250cc fourstroke class, you'd be able to run a 140cc twostroke. As it is, an RS125 can beat a 600 around short circuits like Winton. I suggest we should concentrate on running similar TYPES of bike together, and avoid class domination. If you want to run an old RS125, set a cutoff date , and create a class, and we can all have some fun, but personally I'd prefer to race fourstrokes a gainst other fourstrokes. To bring out an RS125 in a fourstroke class really doesn't interest me - it proves what?

[Gosling1]

..... If you want to run an old RS125, set a cutoff date , and create a class, and we can all have some fun...

Hang on a minute Al - setting a cutoff date is just the same as having a period for certain types of bikes. You have been banging the drum about getting rid of 'period' racing now for years........how does that sit with your suggestion above ?

Sounds to me like you are having a bob each way here.

MotoGP bikes are currently 800cc fourstrokes - there have been no 500cc stinkwheels racing now for about 5 or 6 years.

[acotrel]

There are already modern classes that cater for RS125s, you might want to exclude the latest models - only reason I mentioned a cutoff date. The MotoGP rules allowed 500cc two strokes to race against 800cc four strokes, when the fourstrokes were first introduced. I only mentioned it , as it gives an indication of the capacity relationship, for larger bikes. But I've seen Trevor Manly on an RS125, blitz the 600s round Winton, so the relationship isn't constant for various sized bikes

[pomstar]

imo, way out of scope for the BRA.
How do you qualify the most modern class, that is not up & running yet,
as buckets?

[Mick C]

...The MotoGP rules allowed 500cc two strokes to race against 800cc four strokes, when the fourstrokes were first introduced....

Just to clarify, the first modern 4-stroke MotoGP bikes were 990cc

[HaggLE]

imo, way out of scope for the BRA.
How do you qualify the most modern class, that is not up & running yet,
as buckets?

If you have to build it yourself could it be a bucket?
The "future class" status is irrelevant, imo what I proposed is as much a bucket as a CRF150/RS125 Motolite... it is essentially that but a 250.

[acotrel]

I suggest you should consider what's running in other classes which might benefit from your work. In period 4 there are a few 250 Ducatis, and Aermacchis running around, not really going anywhere. Also there must be some 250 Honda singles and twins amongst the historic bikes, that would enjoy the extra ride. How about calling it AustralianThunderbikes Lightweight (250cc) Class?

[acotrel]

The really good thing about the proposed class is that we can buy Chinese 250cc motors off the shelf, and some of us are capable of making frames. As long as nobody starts imposing restrictions which can make bikes ineligible, there's an opportunity for a back yard industry, which can pay for our other racing.